[polliwog]

You could play banjo out in the woods.

[Becca]

[Steve]

I've not really looked at this thread before ... but WOW there's some interesting / amusing / thought-provoking stuff here, isn't there!

Becca's church-girl ... I am not familiar with that church, so I don't know what it stands for (but I think there are some hints in her post). Jordan~ proposes the best response, highlighting that most (if not all?) religions are riddled with contradictions, but also pinpointing the unshakeability of their believers: "it's turtles all the way down, young man". And Becca ... I can so much identify with your contentedness to work alone, without interruption, and what might be described as a 'dislike of other people', though of course you don't mean it that strongly. I have wondered if I am on the Asperger's scale for these views...

Ann's classmates who answer a question with a tirade: they sound like they are from the same creed as Becca's proselyters. What a shame it is that THEY don't want less to do with other people, and would keep their small-minded views to themselves instead of spouting them at the slightest opportunity.

Oh and the thing with the lighter (ode to & Jordan again). That was funny. My limited experience of the USA is that the children are brought up to be incredibly polite, but that I noticed a much lower concentration of "please"s and "thank you"s when adults speak than over here, which made me feel very slightly uncomfortable. But it was hard for me to get into the habit of saying "You're welcome" when someone thanks me for something like holding open a door. Now that's another thing: if you hold a door or give up a seat, you risk being seen as a patronising dinosaur over here. I don't know if that applies in the USA. You also reminded me of Rita (of Educating Rita fame) discussing swearing in relation to the eduated and well-to-do: "It's all 'paaass the faaaa**ing pheasant'"!

[doublewuzzy]

Opening doors and giving up seats are "noble" things here since most people are very selfish. Only some children are brought up polite; it really depends on the part of the country you are in and who the parents are. You know that old concept about people from a country not all being the same? It's like... hyper-that in the US. Then again, it's probably like that everywhere... I don't like that I'll be considered "American" by foreigners because the general consensus is that we're loud, obnoxious, rude, selfish, and violent... sad day.

Maybe that's a good jumping-off point for other things that suck! America is pretty terrible right now. Republicans are taking over and basically ruining everything - they killed workers' unions in one state (basically state employees have no right to collectively bargain and strike), they're trying to pass legislation to ban abortions and take away the victim status of rape victims, they are trying to defund all sorts of arts programs, and they are trying to totally prevent gay marriage. I REALLY hate Republicans in case you didn't catch that.

The difference between Republicans and Democrats, or at least conservatives and liberals, seems to be the pushing of beliefs. Conservatives want to force everyone into the religious code of Christianity (hence the abortion and gay marriage things). They are obsessed with money and think that it's the only thing worth living for, which is why they hate taxes and social programs like welfare and NPR. I compare it a bit to Iran in that a group of people is trying to force the rest of the country to conform to their beliefs. You could argue the same thing about Liberals EXCEPT that they're not taking control of people's lives in the way conservatives want to. If you are conservative and hate gay marriage and abortion, no one is making you get one. Nobody is making you listen to NPR or go on welfare. It simply affects them monetarily, which they hate, whereas their legislation controls the lives of other people - not just their money.

[ursulabear]

I have lots of antiquarian friends, too. They very much value 'gentlemanliness' and such. It's nice. But I am extremely blunt, and I do not believe in sugar-coating anything. So I get perceived as rude and arrogant. Also, I have mild Asperger's, and I have always used high-brow vocabulary, ever since I could talk (I was in preschool, and I would tell my teachers, 'I am a very articulate and precocious little girl.') This makes me seem like I am a pretentious asshole. But I am not, really. I just can't tell the feelings of others, even if I try. And I have no way of knowing what might offend.

[Jordan~]

The technical difference between progressives and conservatives is that progressives push for reform while conservatives favour the status quo. In America, however, it's almost as if the Democrats have become a conservative party trying to bring the current system up to date but not to reform it any further while the Republicans have become a reactionary party trying to keep it in the past and drag it further back.
Not that I'm convinced that the Republicans have principles of any sort. I think they see how easy it is to appeal to people's greed, self-interest and base instincts and how easy and financially rewarding it is to prostitute the resulting political power to big business. Maybe the Democrats do, but they could do with some backbone. It wasn't too long ago that there was an active, progressive, revolutionary left in America. I'm sure it's not beyond redemption - just lying dormant, waiting to be reawakened, I think.

[Becca]

I try to tell myself not to be so concerned with party lines and not judge people just for being conservative.
But to me, if you are a Republican/conservative, it basically means you hate women, homosexuals (or basically anyone not heteronormative), and poor people. You think women's bodies should be controlled by the government, and that women and non-heteronormative people are somehow lesser (though they usually won't say this outright) and don't deserve equal rights. You don't give a shit about the poor or the arts or the people WHO ARE FUCKING EDUCATING YOUR CHILDREN (well, not your children. Your children go to private school, don't they?) . You are probably racist. You don't give a shit if the poor are denied access to education and health care. YOU ARE BASICALLY A HUGE FUCKING ASSHOLE AND THIS IS WHY I THINK IT'S OK FOR ME TO HATE YOU.
But basically...there was maybe a time when Republicans weren't quite so evil, or sooo different. But now, we are so freaking divided, it is impossible for me to see a bit of sense in anything they say. I feel like we're on an episode of Punk'd or Boiling Points and the Republicans are trying to see how far they can push us before we explode or something.
Wow, this wasn't a very eloquent or intelligent post, but whatever. I am MAD. And we should probably all be mad.

[Jordan~]

Good! Be angry and encourage other people to be angry! The highest level of political activism in the US (aside from crushed efforts at trade unionism) appears to be sneering. People in the States talk about bleeding-heart liberals, show them what a bleeding-fist liberal looks like.
But when you're not protesting or revolting, calm and civility etc. etc.

[ursulabear]

My friend is doing a sleep deprivation experiment (for no particular reason). He's clocked over 100 hours awake. I am really quite worried.

[Jordan~]

You know eventually you die if you don't sleep?

[ursulabear]

I know! But people never listen to me. I told him that the record is 11 days, any much more than that is dangerous. But he doesn't listen.

[Becca]

My boss keeps butting into my personal life. He was kind of being nice and cool the other day but then he really pissed me off when he started asking if I went to church. I said no and he asked if I'd ever been to church. I said that I had (there was a time my dad forced me to go to a Unitarian Universalist church with him. Not so bad as churches go, but I still hated it, just because there's a long list of things I'd rather be doing). My boss asked me if I was going to go to church again, which one I would go to. I said I probably wouldn't go to any, but if I had to I would probably go to the Unitarian Universalist church. He then asked if I knew what church was about. I said I guessed I did, because I wasn't sure what he was getting at. I know what church is supposed to, or should be about, but I have a lot of negative associations with what it actually ends up being about a lot of the time. He then asked if I knew about Jesus and stuff and I said yes. Then he said "well, good. As long as you know that."
OK. Should I be offended by this? Because I am. Am I wrong to think that entire discussion (ie grilling session) was wildly inappropriate?
I am ethnically Jewish (on my mother's side, and that's the side it runs on, or so they say). We haven't been practicing for a couple generations, but my grandparents certainly didn't celebrate Christian holidays. Or go to church. They fucking fled persecution and so yeah, they were a little bit against organized religion and it probably has a lot to do with why I am. But I kind of wish I was a practicing Jew just so when my boss says something about Jesus or like "did you do anything special for Easter?" instead of just saying no, I can say, "no...BUT FOR PASSOVER."
It just really fucking pisses me off that people assume I am a christian unless I say otherwise. And saying I am nonreligious is not a good enough answer, apparently.
You might recall the "Merry Christmas" vs "Happy Holidays" debate a few years ago where Christians tried to act like they were an oppressed minority. You know, kind of like white people are trying to do now with this "reverse racism" baloney? You know, it never bothered me when someone said "Merry Christmas" before...or obv "Happy Holidays." But since they made a thing about it, now it sometimes pisses me off. It's just the assumption that everyone is Christian that frosts me.

[doublewuzzy]

You are NOT making a big deal of it. It's Christian Privilege, just like White Privilege and Male Privilege. I nip it in the bud - if someone brings it up I'll say I'm not comfortable discussing it just to avoid the whole situation.

[Jordan~]

Glad I don't live in the States. When I was on holiday in Florida just the number of churches pissed me off. There are tons of churches here, too, but they were built 200-1000 years ago, not yesterday, and most of them have been converted into accommodation, climbing centres or nightclubs (read: "put to better use"). Why do you need six brand new churches on the same freakin' ridiculously long street? (Another thing I didn't like about Florida is how long all the streets are. If your house number is higher than 100, you need to make it harder to get from one place to another). Why do you need a St. Biscuit's Church of Jesus the Holy Savior's Seventh Day Adventist Baptist Quakers next to a St. Biscuit's Church of Christ the Holy Savior's Seventh Day Adventist Quaker Baptists? And those stupid signs they have. "JESUS LOVES YOU OR ELSE", "HAVE YOU HEARD ABOUT HELL?" Yes, I have. It's a pretty shitty fairy tale, but thanks for asking.
One nice thing about the UK - there are a few, I suppose - is how secular we are. Not necessarily irreligious, since the majority still say they're Christian on their census forms even though the chance that it actually has an impact on their daily routine is approximately 0%, like my Catholic gran who hasn't been to church in 40 years and didn't realise that the Bible was the holy book of the Christian faith. Evidently they only read from Catechism at her Catholic school. People never go on about religion. There were a few actively religious people in my year at school, and occasionally they'd say something peculiar about people having sex or something, but the response was always, "What a freakin' weirdo," whether people thought they'd meet their dead pets after they died or not, so most of the time they kept happily quiet about it.
The first time I ever got into a situation where I found myself surrounded by people who just wanted to help me find Christ was when I got tricked to going along to a Christian Society talk thing in my first week at Cambridge. The flyer just said that there was a talk from a former IRA terrorist, which sounded interesting so I thought I'd go along. In the small print it mentioned that he's a priest now. He talked about his time in the IRA and how he got into it and stuff, then briefly about 'finding God', then there was an intermission that gave me the opportunity to escape. Before I could leave, though, I mentioned to the people at the table I was sitting at that I'd only come along because I hadn't realised it was a God thing and suddenly they were all full of loaded questions and pleas to my immortal soul. I debated with them briefly until he was about to start talking again, then departed with my company before it got any Jesusier. The next time I went to the same venue was a gay night where I got some action, which made up for it.
If they keep breathing down your neck with their god-bothering, I really think you should just say, "Look, I really don't want to hear about this nonsense," or at least, "I don't think that's any of your business and I don't want to talk about it." They'd probably just shut up about it, though if they're all cliquey I understand that it'd be difficult to be the atheist in the flock. And it might just convince them to redouble their efforts. But in that case I think the social situation has changed from, "Let's have a nice little chat about God" to "I wish to convert you, foul heathen", so I think you'd be justified in being a bit more vocal in your defense. Of course, the fact that the guy in question is your boss complicates things. Oh well, if you get fired you could always sue him. Pretty sure it's illegal to fire someone in the US on those grounds, too, right?

[Becca]

I was going to say, isn't there some legal issue about proselytizing in the workplace?
Man, as much as I hated my job at the hair salon, I am really missing my boss who hated organized religion and didn't give a shit about football or make snide comments about gay people.
The only thing I don't like about saying "I'm not comfortable talking about this" is it makes it sound like I lack confidence in my position or that I am somehow scared. I feel like maybe saying it is inappropriate, or even offensive might be slightly more aggressive/assertive without being outright insulting (like, for instance, if I yelled "FUCK JESUS!" next time he says something hahahaha).
Keep your Jesus to yourself. Why is this so hard to understand?

[Jordan~]

I'm angry. Very, very fucking angry, and it won't subside. Not at any specific event, just at the massive dose of reality that's suddenly been injected into my skull. I just went off on a massive rant to someone who's a close-acquaintance-to-friend at best and probably didn't want to hear it, but it's explosive, I can't hold it in. I just can't help but feel that the world is fundamentally shit, no matter how hard you squint at the little chunks of sweetcorn, and that I'm totally powerless to do anything about it.
I have no idea what I want, not in the sense that there's so much that I could want that I can't decide, but that there doesn't actually appear to be anything that I want anywhere. I have all this rubbish to worry about surrounding universities and psychiatrists, 90% of which is totally beyond my control, yet the burden of responsiblity falls on my shoulders. I can't help but wonder why I'm bothering. Because it's the only thing that appears tolerable until closely inspected? Do I really want to have to pop pills to scribble away uselessly for three years, or longer if I'm that much of a masochist, just to get a degree I'm unlikely to put to any use? I'm obviously swimming against the current, clearly this isn't my natural inclination, and if it's such a struggle and no fun with no reward then why am I meant to be so bloody intent on it?
But what else can I do? Where can I possibly go? Is there anything anywhere for me? I can only put off having to confront those questions with some dissatisfying distraction, but eventually I will have to confront them. So what? Get a PhD then off to Dignitas? But I'm not even weary of life, which is all they can put you down for unless you're sick; I'm dissatisfied with it. I want to speak to a manager who doesn't exist. "I understand my mother went through considerable pains to get me here and it appears to be pure shit. I would like my money back, please." It's not even weltschmerz I have. What's the German for "hate"? I have welt-that. And what can I do about it? Go mental and blow something up? Scream my complaint into the deaf void to be drowned out amidst all the pointless, useless noise people make?
What a rubbish world. It's a shame I need to care about it so damn much.

Edit: And then my ex comes online and in two sentences says something that brings me a good eight tenths of the way back down to earth and leaves me feeling foolish, but relieved that it was just foolishness. I get all caught up in something and fly off with it, and he can say something so simple and straightforward and grounded, like a verbal slap in the face to wake me up. It's like he's wise or something. I guess that's why I loved him.

[Weirdelves]

Go have an adventure. See the world. Do a gap year thing. Get out.

Or just sit at home and read the Bell Jar.

[Jordan~]

I would sit at home and read The Bell Jar, only I can't read books anymore. The whole seeing the world thing was a plan for a while that didn't really materialise. It's also quite economically difficult, not that I wouldn't be prepared to slum it. I just wish I had someone to slum it with. There's not much of a difference between being lonely here and being lonely somewhere else.

[Weirdelves]

[Jordan~]

That's true. I get so nervous when I'm meeting new people, though. Which makes me feel like I'm making a terrible first impression which makes me more nervous. Whatever happens, I'm going InterRailing with some friends I made at Cambridge in August/September. I'm not in charge of that plan so it's more likely to happen.